Today's posts bring me back to a thought from page 1. The EU is a bus tour run by a committee. If you want to be in you have to live with the CAP, paying benefits to whoever, straight bananas etc. The Swiss are on a motorcycle tour, they call in the places on the bus tour they fancy and avoid the bingo and service station food.

How two faced the politicians will be reflected in their response to Dave's deal. My money is on every single one including Dave backing it. The Polish PM is the only one with the balls to tell it straight; fit in with the bus tour or go ride your bike and risk getting wet if it rains. The rest want us to pay our share even if we hate it and continue to cause strife because we don't like their plan.

Andy

I came into this thread with my own statement of “pro-Europe, anti-EU”.
Currently I think that if we do end up with a no to the exit vote then it will be “business as usual”; a vote for the status quo.
No change of any significance, carry on in the same old ways.
The current poll within here does indeed show a majority against leaving but it also shows a majority want change; that begs many questions.


There is the aspect of the challenge.
A new start; up for making our own way in the world.
Break out of the current dross of our lives, personal and/or societal and governmental, roll the dice and get on with improving Britain without always looking over our shoulders for what others lay down as the rules.
Raise our sights, have imagination, work harder, yes, but also better – more intelligently with an increased sense of “being in it together”, yep! that well worn phrase. Everyone would have to take on greater personal responsibility for their actions, their inputs, their outputs; none of this would be simple and it would take a great amount of both time and effort.
To do this would not be easy, it would need a brand new approach, across many many spheres of activity; we would have to demand that our government changes for a start, if necessary by sacking them – not easy, the way it is set up at present. For instance, the 5 year fixed term for a parliament would have to be changed back to the arrangements of earlier days so that a vote of no confidence within that house would bring about a new election more or less immediately. We have been conned by our own representatives to think that they have tenure, come what may, for a full 5 years.
Similar actions would be necessary in many other aspects, at all levels of government.
It would need a government of national unity, putting party politics on the back burner while the issues are clearly identified and dealt with; in essence the country would be on what is normally referred to as a war footing for an indeterminate length of time.
In short, nothing would be unthinkable in dealing with the best interests of the UK; for instance, a federal structure to deal with the Scots' wish to leave the UK. However, if they do so confirm that wish then so be it – there would be no point in a pressed nation continuing to drain our stamina with constant complaints. A nation that decides by referendum to check out of the EU could only agree that those who wish to leave the UK have the right to do just that.


Leadership will be needed and it may be in short supply at first, going by the standard of politicians we see at present; not many of the current crop show any real motivation beyond their own personal careers – in short, statesmanship is currently in short supply.
Those in the shadows who have capability would need to step forward, speak up and see off those they know who have been in place merely for their own selfish, self-aggrandising interests.


To do this would also show an extraordinary level of leadership to the remainder of the European nations; arguably they would draw heart from a UK decision to leave and take up their own challenges within their countries thereby building their own better futures.
We would be, should be, respected for having taken the decision and, thereby, taken the lead in a new deal for all of Europe that wishes to reform.
Necessary trade arrangements and similar technical data would flow there from.


The alternative is what?
Another round of financial crisis is on the way in any case; when we are told the story that we are a rich country it is conveniently forgotten that the whole edifice is based on a mountain of debt.

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Dave

You think the financial crisis was the fault of the EU and not a rotten, corrupt and completely unregulated and irresponsible financial industry. You really believe that the UK has been held back by its EU membership rather than an entrenched ruling class and total commitment to the failed economic model of neo-liberalism?

I wonder if you have taken in by the propaganda that we 'maxed out the nations credit card', like so many. This was nothing but a lie to bring in purely ideological attack on public services otherwise known as austerity (not for the rich though, their benefits have not been affected).

Nation States with central banking are built on debt. Money is debt. Government borrows money to spend on infrastructure and state services and gets it back through selling bonds and taxation. When the 08 crash happened the UK had relatively low debt, compared to other successful EU states.

Then Austerity was brought in and our economy has been stagnant since while the deficit (the money paid to service the debt - anyone know to whom it is paid?) has exploded. Thoroughly discredited elsewhere, Osbourne and whoever tell him what to do push it though, probably just out of pure contempt for the likes of you and I, and pretty much everyone else who isn't filthy rich.

Look at the debt of Germany, Japan or the USA, or any other G8 nation and tell me they are in credit. A mountain of national debt means nothing in a strong economy, it's a problem when the debt can't be serviced, because a sluggish economy reduces income from taxation and a tanking economy means high risk bonds thus the government has to sell them cheaper for higher rates of return. When all these things come together you end up with something like Greece, though certainly, it seems there was more to that just that.

On a side note, If we want to talk about power and sovereignty - go read about the history of central banking - especially during the formative years of the US and the Fed. States who can't control their own supply of money for the betterment of society gave up their sovereignty when they handed the supply of money over to the bankers. Lots of talk about the EU being broken but not much on fractional reserve banking and central banking and who our financial system really benefits. Wonder why?

No.

And everything else you wrote in your last post is over in this thread:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...c-crisis-59853

and has been for about the last 4 years.

As before, the alternative is what??

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Dave

I had not heard of "Glass-Steagall" and their act, so I did some reading and find that it applies to the USA, or it did.
Ellen Brown writes about it (she is in my earlier link of 3 days ago).
Our equivalent, as far as I can tell, is this:-
Research Briefings - The Independent Commission on Banking: The Vickers Report & the Parliamentary Commission on banking standards
The lead "guy" in this is interviewed on UK news on occasions. He talks a lot of sense.

In any case, there isn't a great deal of depth to the economic points made in this thread which is OK by me because the fundamentals are over there, on another side of the HUBB pub:-
On balance, I am inclined to think that we have more chance of reforming our banking system, and much else besides, outside of the nightmare that the EU has become.
This guy thinks differently, but he didn't last long when he came up against the raw power of the central European powers:
The EU no longer serves the people – democracy demands a new beginning | Yanis Varoufakis | Opinion | The Guardian

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Dave

Here is my guesstimate from early February this year (page 17 of this discourse):-

Since February, the Flexit campaign - the LeaveAlliance - has provided me with a feasible plan for Brexit.

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Dave

You have a unique writing style. So similar to cut & paste. I see lots of words but not too many verbs.

You say, "Sack the government".

What else?

What else do we actually do?

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Paul "Every county of England, every country of Europe and every (part of every inhabited) continent of the Earth" 94% done! What's left? Central America, East, Central and West Africa, Australia & New Zealand

They don't have the answers by the looks of things, lots of long winded posts but very little in the way of solutions

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Dave

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Paul "Every county of England, every country of Europe and every (part of every inhabited) continent of the Earth" 94% done! What's left? Central America, East, Central and West Africa, Australia & New Zealand

Some commentary elsewhere has touched on an aspect that has received little attention so far.


This referendum has never been about the very-usual party politicking that is the norm for much of the time; from day one of the campaigning it has been obvious that all of the political parties in the UK, bar the recent UKIP, are split with advocates for both sides of the case.
But, the UK public has had enough – seen enough – heard enough; this is not about party politics but it is about a revolution against the establishment.
All of the establishment, across the EU and within the UK.
The current UK PM will come to regret his personal lack of success in his recent negotiation with the EU and his decision to take the lead in the campaigning for one of the cases.
As has been said previously, the vote that is one week away is just the beginning.

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Dave