I am not understanding why it is a manufactures fault that they do not make a very specific bike for a very small number of customers. It has been said they did they would sell and all would be well in the world. The problem is that I don't think they would sell in the numbers at the required profit margin for the manufactures to do it.

The large number of people that buy those big heavy BMs now won't know the difference between good suspension and bad. So unless someone famous is seen riding one we have a great bike that doesn't sell and will not last long.

I just don't think there is a big enough market for it. It's not like the sports bike market which year in year out is the most popular despite most never seeing a track.

Sadly, you are probably right. Trouble is I only look at this site and Advrider so I tend to forget that sportsbikes still exist.

Ride magazine had a picture of a Ducati loaded with soft luggage and the comment that if you tour then it becomes a tourer. I agree.

I toured round Scotland with my L plated YBR 125. I will do the same and am off to Ireland in September with my KLE500. I would want something bigger and newer for going further afield again, the main reason for that is comfort and carrying ability.

If I could get comfortable on a Ducati, then that is what I would use.

I dont think the shareholders of any bike manufacturer are particularly happy. Again, just trying to be fair to the manufacturers, they aint making money. We slag them off when we get frustrated, or complain about the cost of spare parts. But they obviously are not pricing them too high because many of them are almost broke.

KTM was on the verge of bankruptcy 18 months ago, and while the situation is now stable, they dont have any money for expansion or R&D right now.

Aprilia is on the ropes.

Moto Morini went under recently.

Its pretty cut-throat out there for the manufacturers right now.

I suspect they sell the bikes as cheap as they can, due to too much competition, and have to make money on the parts and accessories due to significantly reduced competition in that area.

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Maybe it's time to address the ideals of some of their customers. I'm more a sideline expert but it seems that a lot if not all of the key items of what's on the wish list are off the shelf products so R&D can be minimum. I'd be in the market for a proper bike instead of spending that money making one myself now. Happy to spend it, but until that happens I'm just not. No one's listening it seems so if that's resulting in going bust, tough cookies I reckon. A company like KTM has had plenty of opportunities and instead they spend a fair bit of coin developing something like a 690 with rubbish results.

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Tacos Tyring Travels.com

Hi Walter

I don’t have a problem if bike companies or their dealers who build bags of sh!t or do shoddy work for too much money go to the wall. Being a potential customer for any bike I’ve never considered an Apillia, nor MM as a brand I’d like to own.

As far as KTM go, I think their 400/450exc models might make a good starting point for a travel bike, but the 640 was a whole load of dudu from the start (What about all those poor beta testers up until 2003 who only had grief with the motor (big end bearing? clutch master something or other?). I met a 640 overlanding Dane in Cairo in late 1999 who had problems with his front wheel bearings. KTM had put in the wrong size (“if it doesn’t fit properly, just hit it with a hammer”) from new from the factory! The 690 FI issues that have been bitched about in various forums and on Dave Lomax/ADV-Spec’s recent Morocco caper definitely scare me. If they ever wanted to sell big volumes of big “adventure” bikes they missed the biggest trick ever telling Ewen and Things to get lost when they came grovelling for bikes.

Or BMW dealerships: £85/hour (or more?) labour and “they all do that sir”. My "exploits" on an old Airhead won't be mentioned here: The list is tool long.


Or Sid Moram’s Honda in Slough (circa mid 1990s) who failed my 250 Honda dirt bike MOT because of a bush on the shock being a bit soft so he could sell me a new shock… I went to a different testing station and it passed no problem. Or their mechanic who put a front sprocket on the wrong way round on my A/T (during a C and S change: in the days when I didn’t know how to do stuff like that) and didn’t notice. I did. He’s also “forgotten” to put the grill back on to protect one of the 2 radiators.

Maybe there is a niche for bikes that are fit for purpose (that the glossy brochures/websites portray; that quite a few people on this forum and on sites like advrider do or aspire to do) and work, where salesmen don’t B/S you and where you don’t feel a rip off heading your way the minute you enter their dealership/website.

Slag off/Rant over…

Cheers
Chris

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Brighty's website: TheBrightStuffDotCom

CURRENT RR WITH REGULAR UPDATES: The Wife Takes on Chlamydia: A South American Retrospective

Manufacturers going to the wall is a double edged sword. KTM is probably the one manufacturer that might produce the high spec bike some of you guys are looking for. However, to say a shock absorber manufacturer they aren't a customer, they are a PITA. If KTM go bust, the shock manufacturer will breath a sigh of relief that they won't have to keep fending off requests for weird parts and chasing payment (I stopped supply of a part to TVR in another life, they though their name was too important for them to pay their bills or stay within the terms of the parts warranty. My employer was fine that I'd dumped a loss making account).

How will say BMW react though? They can get together with HPN or Touratech and produce a factory variant at a higher price than their standard offering and try to get more KTM's old customers. As I believe has been pointed out above though, they'll basicaly expect their suppliers to give away the fancy bits to keep the standard business. The alternative is to say to KTM's old customers, "there's the G650, F800 and R1200, take 'em or leave 'em". They'd take 25% of KTM's business for no effort at all.

We are of course own own worst enemies. We buy BMW's that aren't properly tested. We buy a Triumph because it has a Union Jack on the side panel. We buy sportsbikes because one with the same name on the tank won something. The manufacturers provide the sub-£10000, new styled plastic, space-invaders-game-built-into-the-dash we demand. They cut corners on the suspension because 10 guys will buy because it's the new shape to one that notices the shocks.

Did anyone realise Triumph are using Excel rims on the Tiger BTW? No idea if these are better or just their old rims rebranded, but maybe they do listen sometimes?

Andy

This is the result of the buyers not being sufficiently discerning or demanding. It's easy and cheap for the manufacturers to bling up a bike with electronic wizardry and, as you say, a lot of buyers buy style over substance. The overland adventure market is only a small percentage of those that would buy a rallye styled bike and supplying worthy suspension as original equipment just eats into the margin but doesn't generate many sales.

BMW have been criticised for supplying substandard suspension components but they just go to the cheapest supplier and at least you know it's going to be rubbish. KTM on the other hand either own or have shares in White Power and therefore fit what is basically a reputable make but are in some cases fitting low grade substitutes for the real thing (still made by WP but to a much lower spec.).

You've got to remember that these days the majority of bikers are not actually buying their bikes. The finance scheme makes it effectively a HP deal with a 2 or 3 year term. BMW has really got this sorted so you effectively cover the cost of the bike and then give it back in return for the next model. That's a great reason to change minor details and colours and call it improvements.
Most things sell on creating want and that's simple branding and not exclusive to motorcycling. "The GS is the Bike Ewan McGregor rode" is exactly the image they've created for this reason. (I'd be very surprised if we don't see another "Long way" series next year roughly in line with the launch of the new water-cooled GS which has to be a scary thing for BMW, changing the formula of their biggest seller.) How many R1s sold ever see a track?
KTM, I'm not a fan but let's be fair, is a very small company. In terms of Honda or BMW most of them are and that's let some of these manufacturers try doing things a little different and going after a more elite slice of the market that the big boys, selling in bulk just aren't interested in. I think KTM do well here. They don't have the buying power of a huge company but that buying power is not turning out better machines but more mundane designs that capture a wider and wider market share.
We are in a global recession which is heading for a depression, it's pushing prices up on everything and companies are vanishing every day. Scary times for all of us.
Personally I would pay slightly more for the right machine if it really was the right machine, not what a company wanted to sell me because it was an easier thing for them to make.
There was a company building "the perfect ADV machine" I found somewhere. It was powered by a Kawasaki parallel twin 500 engine. Interesting choice, I thought. Custom frame and heavily enduro biased styling. It was ok. It didn't speak to me but it was nice enough. The thing is they wanted £35k for it. That sounds like a silly amount but for an independent company sourcing good parts and competent engineering they're probably making less than 10% per bike. Who here would pay that for a bike powered by an old 500cc engine?
I guess that means we have to take what we can get to a degree and make the changes we can afford to make as we need to but I seriously doubt we'll ever see an ideal ADV bike from a mainstream manufacturer because there's not a big enough market for it. GS's, Fireblades and Street-triples sell all day because there just enough of the right thing to appeal to most people and they can make them for the right price.

As a (very) little experienced rider, I may refer back to the initial comment raised by Magnon at the beginning of this thread (not trying to change the direction it took ).

Summarizing: “some potential (young and/or with little resources) overlanders may be discouraged by the cost of prepping a bike for the trip after seeing those “Dakar Rally looking bikes” stuffed with TT and the like”. It is praiseworthy to raise that concern and I agree that this could happen… but IMHO only when those guys were not really into the idea of the overland trip. It shouldn’t take too long to find out how any bike (or car) can take you anywhere and see that C90s and 125/250cc also cross continents and therefore adapt your budget accordingly. I'd say anyone at an initial stage tends to "overprepare" everything related to a big trip (as packing too much) in order to be face the unexpected, and that may indeed look like "confused by those deeply modified bikes".

I cannot afford those preparations and I guess they wouldn’t be fit me, nor I would be able at all to get even 40% -less, actually- of their potential. Nonetheless, I think it is great to see them, understand the reasons for their improvements and be amazed on how a non-professional rider may get to “cook” such bikes, as many of you. Anyhow, I still like better the old XTs/DRs with sheepskin and rundown saddlebags (maybe till I win the lottery?), although they may not be that suitable for certain situations.

Indeed, I feel there is more than enough space in here for both approaches which seem totally complementary to me. It would be a pity if someone feels out of place because he/she loves to prep/upgrade his bike a lot (it is true that sometimes people answer "I can't see the point of getting that 1000€ tank when you can carry a 10€ jerrycan?", but it usually responds to a thread started with "I have a great experience over the years with all kind of bikes, so I already know, bla, bla").

Esteban

PS: What I don’t like are T-Max with Akrapovics pushing the rest to get out of their way… (virtually everyday I have one idiot behind bothering. In T-MAX forums they may hate guys riding quietly their singles).

Hi Esteban,

You've obviously seen the point of my original post. Not wishing to prejudice anyone I think that the first time overland adventurer can benefit from the information on this site and others in terms of forming a view on how they would like to tackle their trip. However, I fear that many see the information as a definitive guide on how to do it or how to prep. a particular bike and maybe then take the view that it can't be done on a budget. I don't believe you can adapt or improve a bike to meet your specific needs until you have found out what those needs are but there are some essential elements for a long distance, multi purpose travel bike and (ignoring the great big expensive ones) the only production model currently available that vaguely fits the bill is the Tenere. There are numerous older models which were much closer to the mark (including XTs and DRs) which are a good option for many travellers as these bikes have great aftermarket support and a proven track record. For someone who is not mechanically minded and would really rather just buy a new bike for a trip and reasonably expect it to be reliable and well supported by a worldwide dealer network, the choice is very limited.

My main gripe though goes back to Colebatch's remark that buyers are not discerning enough which is so true. Trouble is this allows the marketing men to create bikes which they tell you are suitable for all types of adventure riding and you could set off tomorrow on that RTW you've always dreamt about, when in fact what thery have sold you is a heap of sub-standard junk. In extreme cases the marketing departments send a couple of actors round the world on their bikes, produce a television show which shows the bikes with broken frames and many other failures but they still manage to sell thousands of bikes on the back of it.

I reckon the cost of prep is overstated and ignores the money earned from selling the parts that you upgraded. Obviously this assumes that you can stay away from the TT catalogue. All the bling in there is pointless, and with a bit of cleverness you can avoid having to go there. After selling my BM OEM suspension parts I ended up with the upgraded suspension for nearly free. Most of the other mods for my bike I normally suggest would end in a similar result.

Learn to do everything yourself, and you'll save heaps. The knowledge you gain will save you heaps on the road as well.

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Tacos Tyring Travels.com

Just chiming in to point out that a couple of DR's along with the KLR are still available new in North America. Neither is "perfect," of course, but both qualify on budget grounds at less than US$7000 out the door.

Mark

Hi Magnon,

Thank you, your point is very honest -and generous- and I initially agreed with it. However, after some thought, I got to the conclusion that No, I don’t think it would actually happen.

Starting from the wrong premise “Prepping your bike for an overland trip will definitely imply lots of modifications and a huge investment” inferred from those mentioned threads/posts, I see 3 possible scenarios:

1) the guy (=future overlander) keeps on searching and finds out it can be done on the cheap with fewer/no modifications, whether a) asking in HUBB/elsewehere “I have quite a tight budget, can it be done cheaper?” and getting tons of answers saying yes, even from owners of those thoroughly modified bikes; b) he finds by himself people crossing Canada in a 50cc Mobylette Caddy or Africa on a 125/250cc.

2) he/she doesn’t keep on any further and changes his mind: plain backpacking on public transport; cheap car; cycling; hitchhiking. This one looks to me quite improbable, because the idea of the trip is deeply rooted in his mind, so he would keep on searching.

3) the guy just quits plainly his “overland dream”, since bike modifications are too expensive. I would not worry about this case: he/she was just not going to do it anyway. You may call an “I was going to” attitude. An exaggerated example: “I was going to paddle around the Mediterranean but found a leak in my kayak and finally could not go on” (why didn’t you just fix it and kept on?). It is closely tied to the “I would have loved to… but” attitude, which means it is always jut too late for any of those dreams to be achieved (I kind of borrow the DVD title!).


What you mean about bikes may happen with anything related with the big trip, as gear: an expensive MSR tent, instead of a cheap Decathlon-Quechua; the ultimate therm-a-rest instead of a cheap foam mattress; Touratech Compañero jacket instead of your brother’s old one, etc. So, if he(/she) knows his budget, time limit and preferences, he may always reach a solution on the cheap; if he doesn’t, he wasn’t going to do the trip anyway.

By contrast, I’d be much more concerned/worried about the case of people who may be put off by comments just because they like to prepare a lot their bikes to be -not just suitable, but- perfect for the task. This pre-trip stage is part of the fun (and big fun) for them, as for others is roadside breakdown fixing with gaffer tape/chewing gum/shoelace. Nothing wrong with that.

In other words, I find a shame to blame someone because he, for instance, points out that BMW suspension is crap when it actually seems to be just crap –I just read it, I don’t know it-, particularly if comments get harsh and/or may seem somehow jealous. Sure, advice should always be balanced by the conditions/aims of the trip for the guy to understand the real need. But polite, honest, constructive opinions do not harm anyone, furthermore they help a lot.

Summarizing, although I get your point, I would take much more care of (current) hubbers who might feel blamed/out of place/quit (as it was mentioned in a previous post) than worry about discouraged/disappointed prospect overlanders lacking the interest/tenacity to look any further about bike needs and costs.

Esteban

PS: Yes, shame on manufacturers who sell adventure bikes not ready for that "adventure". The viewer of the documentary perceives trip take as an odyssey they have to endure with broken/frames and shocks, needing a support team, and bearly thinks it may be feasible… and he may the next BM GSA customer and doesn’t need frame/suspension to be so durable. But, apart these thoughts I do share, may I stick up for those actors? I guess many people discovered their passion for motorcycle overland travel thanks to them (nothing to be ashamed of).

PS2: I guess I am just too newbie/inexperienced to write that much… New post resolution: read more, write less

Firstly, I think you need a passion for bikes and motorcycling if you are going to get involved in an extended overland trip. That said there are a lot of motorcyclists who have no idea how their bike works and have no intention of finding out so for them, if they want to enlarge their motorcycling experience by travelling to isolated places then they will rely on someone else to prepare their bike.

I've known numerous travellers (mostly sucessful) who have started out with the attitude of 'how hard can it be' and set off with a bike straight from the shop with absolutely no preparation at all. Obviously, once away from civilisation it can be a fairly steep learning curve but, as I say, most were sucessful in that they completed the trip as planned and enjoyed themselves so much they went back for more. They may get more out of the second trip as the bike is adapted for the purpose but they may also miss something by having a bike that is too capable.

My first trip was on a nearly new bike bought for the purpose but I always took the view that the manufacturer wouldn't have made it like that if it wasn't the best way and therefore modified very little. I was a bit disappointed when the dealer told me the standard shock probably wouldn't get me to Dover (but he did have a better one available at £400) and apart from that and homemade luggage everything was as it came from the shop.

There a dozens of ways to approach the whole thing. Riding overland or around the world is a personal challenge. What you want to get from it is entirely up to the individual. Going back to my original points which were in effect criticism of the manufacturers for not producing a good starting point for an overland adventure travel bike (apart from perhaps the Tenere) but instead fobbing us off with sub standard tatt, and also a comment that whilst some people on here start with a budget and just get on with it, there are a lot of wish listers whose budget rapidly gets out of control. Half the items on the wish list would be standard fitment on my hypothetical 'perfect bike' and the rest are just unnecessary gadgets.