Does it matter to you?

[Caminando]

I mean visiting dodgy countries.

The sort of places which, for example, invade other countries, kidnap, take hostages, kill indiscriminately, take political prisoners, torture or assassinate those they dont like and which generally have a poor record on human rights.

Do you take this into consideration when trip planning? Do you say it's none of your business and anyway what difference does my visit make? Does it matter?

I refer to countries which practice many or some of the above actions, such as some of the 'Stans, Myanmar, India (in Kashmir), the US, Libya, Israel, Egypt, Syria, and so on. There are many more.

So how do you calm your conscience? If it needs calming at all.

[motoreiter]

haha, I find it hilarious that you lump in the US with the Stans, Libya, Syria, and other countries that "kidnap, take hostages, kill indiscriminately, take political prisoners, torture or assassinate those they dont like and which generally have a poor record on human rights". While we're at it, what do you feel about countries that negotiate with, and pay ransoms to, terrorists?

[markharf]

Probably better to answer the (very interesting, I think) question than derail the thread by debating which countries should be included in someone's list.

FWIW, I make efforts to assess the effect of my visits and my spending--buying locally from people and organizations I respect rather than indicriminately for example--but I've never managed to work out whether my visit to repressive places helps or hinders those responsible for the repression. Am I offering support by my presence and spending? If so, to whom? As far as I can tell, repressive regimes (including in my home country, the USA) have tended to fall due to increased availability of information and dialogue, not boycotts and ostracism. However, I'm far from certain about the validity of my interpretations of events.

I do think it's important on a smaller scale that we assess the impacts of our tourist presence and actions. If not careful, we tend to convey an attitude of disdain and disrespect for local cultures--"Hey waiter! I ordered a 5 minutes ago! Where's it at? What's wrong with these people?" (a direct quote from an overland motorcyclist I met). If determined, I think it's possible to communicate respect and value instead, of which virtually all people and cultures can use all they can get.

There are also issues of precisely when during normal seasonal cycles to travel--I try to avoid the hungry seasons which precede harvests in many places, during which my purchasing power will drive up the cost of scarce food for locals--and what sorts of merchants to patronize, with preference given to buying as locally as possible so that funding is directed to local people, not middlemen or outsiders.

And lastly, I think it's important that anyone traveling in and enjoying the Developing World find ways to give something substantial in return. By this I mean more than the bits of cash you leave behind--rather, something enduring in the form of good works, ongoing relationships, donations to charities, or whatever.

Interested to hear what others have to say.

Mark

(lounging around in tropical Panamanian heat on my return trip northward)

[othalan]

If I were to start compiling a list of countries to avoid because of actions they have taken which I object to, there wouldn't be a single one left for me to visit. If people think about it honestly, I'm guessing I'm not alone in that view.

Consider also that one of the primary reasons many people travel is to broaden their horizons, meet the locals, and find out for themselves what other countries and cultures are like. Finding out the truth of such countries is the reason such people do visit those places.

Personally, I will only avoid countries because of safety concerns (e.g. war zones) or because the country makes it more difficult to enter than it is worth to me (China maybe, haven't decided yet).

[*Touring Ted*]

There are no countries not guilty of those crimes !!

The US is probably the biggest criminal invading country in the world and Britain has a DREADFUL history of rape, murder and pilage throughout its colonies. Would you avoid Spain because it was the last country to abolish slavery or maybe avoid France because it blows up pacific islands with Nuclear weapons ?

The western countries are far better at putting a spin on it all aren't they ! The west murder with a smile and handshake.

Anyway, I don't visit a country to see its polititians, government and generals... I go to see the REAL people who generally never represent their government, especially in the 3rd world.

Governments, borders and politics are best left ignored when travelling. Just my 0.2p worth.

[Keith1954]

Bravo! Well said Ted ..
.

[SeanF]

Originally Posted by *Touring Ted*

Anyway, I don't visit a country to see its polititians, government and generals... I go to see the REAL people who generally never represent their government, especially in the 3rd world.

Governments, borders and politics are best left ignored when travelling. Just my 0.2p worth.

Spot on

[Sime66]

Originally Posted by othalan

If I were to start compiling a list of countries to avoid because of actions they have taken which I object to, there wouldn't be a single one left for me to visit.

Good call. And I'd be unable to stay in my own country as well, so I'd have to move to the moon.

[Endurodude]

Some very interesting points here!

To add my 0.2p's worth, China is somewhere I've always fancied going, but can't seem to get past it's Government's issues with Tibet / the Dalai Lama. I'm sure the people are fantastically welcoming, and I've been fascinated by its culture for years.

I think I'd also have issues going to Zimbabwe, purely because of Mugabe.

Conversely, I'm thoroughly looking forward to going to other African contries in order to experience cultures far different from my own. I think it is these differences that get me most excited about overland travel. As many others have said, its the people that make travelling interesting and worth while.

[Threewheelbonnie]

Originally Posted by Caminando

So how do you calm your conscience? If it needs calming at all.

I probably don't have one

There are ****wits in all countries. I view it as a reflection on a country as to how these people are allowed to get away with it, especially if they work for the government. I'm at a point in my travels where I really can't be bothered to get felt up by "security" to get in, be served chemically modified by some bored halfwit who can't be bothered and then have to bribe someone to get out. Still, I live here, so you get used to it

I would now honestly pick destinations as a balance of what's there versus how much hassle there is to get there. I think a countries politics are part of that equation. I travelled in Eastern Europe when it was still under the communists and it many ways you can see why the parts of the population that weren't in the salt mines might look back with a certain nostalgia. The men in dirty macs who followed us in the Trabants were commical. Didn't bother me in the slightest that their mates at HQ were probably kicking the **** out of some poor soul for listening to the wrong radio station. Maybe it should have?

Andy