I agree re. the 'styling exercise' - as I say I've only seen the KTM and GS used off road. The old Africa Twin seems to be really capable off road but I think later developments lean towards road use only.

No intention of doing any off road with my other half - she would say she did enough of that, in Africa a few years back, for a lifetime. Also, I wouldn't use such a large bike for anything too extreme - that's the next trick, to find the ideal trail bike which needs to be very lightweight but not too competition orientated - something with 400ccs plus but not race tuned. The 690 should be good but, sadly, it's too heavy.

Yes, there are a few in Germany, but that is only one out of about 45 countries in the EEC afaik nowhere else.. and running up and down autobahns is not my idea of bike riding.

In France and UK and most of Europe anything not dual carriageway has a 56mph limit. Even the french Peages are mostly 80mph limit, 70 in the UK.

For two up, the Suzuki DL1000 is very comfortable and can handle off highway very well, off road less well due to low clearance (19" front). Good value, pretty reliable and easy enough to work on that as long as you have any mechanical interest you can do a lot of the work yourself which keeps the running costs low.

Not sure if any of the larger bikes will fit your bill for real offroading though as you mentioned that you couldn't imagine taking a 1200GS offroad, so could be doubtful that you would be happier taking a 1200 Tenere or a DL1000 or the Multistrada for that matter. Best of luck and post some photos when you decide.

What did you find too cramped about the F800? Perhaps you could have the seat modified, as aside from the KTM I suspect it's the closest thing to what you're looking for.

The Suzuki is getting a few votes despite its lack of off road ability, but I think I'm still drawn to the KTM. We rode the F800 on the same day as the 1200GS and it did seem too small. We also rode the 1200RT and 1300GT both of which got the thumbs up from the other half from the point of view of comfort and space. We'll have to try the 800 again after we've tried the KTM two up for a more realistic comparison.

I've had a few touring bikes in the past and would say that being able to sit on a motorway at 90+ all day was the minimum requirement of the riding position and wind protection which is why I used it as point of reference for my ideal dual purpose bike. Travelling on motorways is essential sometimes. Our old Moto Guzzi Spada took us from Munich to Reading in a day almost all on motorway as we had to be back at work the next day.

I use my R100GS for the sort of off road trips I'm talking about and it's absolutely fine but I used to have an R1150GS that, for me, was useless mostly due to its extra weight so the choice is quite a fine line. The 1150 also didn't do the tourer bit very well - poor wind protection even with the adventure screen and uncomfortable seat.

Personally I don't like 21" front wheel bikes for primarily road riding, that's why I like the gs, but a tenere off road it ain't!

It's all a question of compromise. I found the 21" front wheel on the F800GS felt a bit odd but iwas riding other bikes on the same day with 18/19" wheels so I decided it would be something I'd get used to. Braking is never going to be up to sportsbike standard on a skinny 21" tyre.

For me the KTM seems to offer the best dual purpose compromise but I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't get a more conventional tourer (1200RT is favoured by wifey) and stick with the R100GS for off road trips. If I'm honest, one of the problems with the R1150GS off road was fear of dropping such an immaculate bike and to some extent with the 690 which I bought new, the first scratch is never a good experience (it's well 'scratched' now).

My belief is that it's all about marketing and what I want doesn't necessarily fit any of the profiles the marketeers have identified (aprt from KTM, perhaps0

You must be mixing the new Yamaha Tenere' up with BMW or KTM. The Yamaha Ten 1200 may be heavy and expensive but you won't be having any parts clapping out on you any time soon. If nothing else it will be reliable and last a long time. If you leave it out in Winter or ride on Salted roads ... well then .... you're screwed.

When you say "trail" riding in the Pyrennes, the guys I saw riding there were on Trials bikes. No GS, KTM 990 or Yam Tenere' 1200 is going anywhere near the trails I saw. Super knarly stuff. Perhaps you know easier routes?

Fire roads, sure, no problem, even mild two track OK. But a real trail could be a challenge, especially two up. I would bet the Yamaha could go two years with NO SERVICE. (not ideal, but it won't care)

The other bike to consider is the BMW F800GS. Fit a better seat and should be OK. Very easy to ride in mild off road conditions. I rode the F800GS and a NEW R1200GS side by side. The F800 is SO MUCH nicer off road. Of course you have to deal with usual BMW failures but not many on the F800. A really nice bike, IMO.

I'm looking for a replacement for my R100GS. We've used this bike for very long distance touring 2 up and it handles the sort of trail riding I expect it to. However, it's now getting on a bit so I'm looking for something with more reliability and, at least for a while, something that doesn't have a never ending list of 'maintenance to do' issues. The GS's shortcomings have always been in the touring part of the compromise - Motorway/A road cruising speed is a bit limited, wind protection is also a bit limited, brakes are feeble by modern standards and the handling on the road is slow and ponderous compared to more modern bikes.

So I tried an 1150GS for 3 years but never really liked it - dangerously heavy off road, didn't like the hot weather and very uncomfortable.

Of course, I could make some improvements to the above bikes, especially the R100GS but it's still 20 years old. I did make some changes to the 1150 but still never got to like it.

The 21" front wheel could be a bit of an issue. It is part of the reason the R100GS is ponderous on the road and it definately felt odd on the F800GS I rode but the 690 enduro handles very well on the road, so perhaps it's more to do with geometry than wheel size.

KTM adventure is still looking like the best option although far from perfect. Would be interested in any feedback on the Stelvio and Multistrada but I think the dealers are even thinner on the ground than KTM dealers.

Just my view on things but it seems to me that KTM comes with good quality rebuidable suspension, good brakes and is generally put together using good quality parts (except wheel rims?). You pay for the quality components. BMW use relatively poor quality parts but charge a lot for the finished product. Other manufacturers build their bikes down to a price and it's generally accepted that aftermarket parts can be a substantial improvement over the OE.

[quote=Mickey D;296778]You must be mixing the new Yamaha Tenere' up with BMW or KTM. The Yamaha Ten 1200 may be heavy and expensive but you won't be having any parts clapping out on you any time soon. If nothing else it will be reliable and last a long time.

Are you from the future?

No, just empirical evidence based on hours in the saddle of Yamahas.

Have you owned or ridden extensively any modern Yam Sport Touring bikes or Sport bikes?

I've ridden several current model Yamaha's over the last ten years. I've also noted the condition/history of several in our riding group. We do a ride a month, YEAR ROUND, usually 3 to 4 days on the road. The FJR1300's in our group are holding up beautifully. NO issues. Both now up to about 60,000 miles of aggressive use.

We've got another guy who has an FZ-1, like new after three years. Quality appears consistently good throughout Yamaha's products. Even my '07 WR250F dirt bike is good, actually it's great. Drop it in a mud puddle? Hose it off, looks like the day it was made. NO ISSUES! I'd suggest stripping one apart and see how they are put together.
Check out the comments over in the UK on the 660 Tenere'. Holding up really well from what I've heard.

I also ride with a an old Geezer (70) who has put 200,000 (no, not 20K, 200K) miles on R-1 Yamahas. An '05 (80K miles), an '07 (100K miles) and now a '10 (up to 20K so far). Not a whisper of a problem with any of them.
The '05 idles like a Rolex. 80,000 miles on it. Paint work, rubber bits and plastic all look very good, no rust or corrosion on Aluminum.

And if you think this guy is slow and easy on the bikes ... Please come and try to keep up with him on our back roads He is an X pro Flat Tracker. Blazingly fast, talented. Loves his R-1's to pieces and he rides nearly everyday. (retired)

The fact is Yamaha have an excellent reputation over the long term.
The OP is coming off a 20 year old anachronism ... yet seems Cock Sure of what he wants ... like he has owned and ridden all the bikes mentioned . No shrinking violet, that's for sure. My guess after his 35 HP BMW that 110 HP 1200 Yam, 135 HP Multistrada or 90 HP KTM 990 would have him shit his pants.

I would bet money the R1200 Tenere' is not only reliable but will hold up well to weather and hard use for years and years. It's just what Yamaha do. They don't make many bad bikes. Go to the factory ... see for yourself.
It may be too heavy and overpriced but it won't be falling apart or dropping its final drive or burning up a water pump any time soon.

How much time did you spend on the F800GS? How did you find the power? I spent a couple days on the F800GS ... would never describe it's handling as "ponderous". It's not R-1 or a KTM 690SM but a very solid yet light handling bike on all our beat up California back roads. Not bad off road either. Plush suspension, smooth power, great brakes. I really liked it ... and I am not a BMW fan. Excellent bike, did everything well. After just ten minutes I was comfortable enough to ride it fast and hard on unknown roads. For me .... that is a good sign. It's a winner.

The Stelvio is a bit of a Turd, IMHO. Just rode one at the USA National Moto Guzzi Rally. Free Demos. No one seemed to like it. I really wanted to like the Stelvio. I've tested many Guzzi's before and in the end almost always like them. But it takes TIME. I only rode the Stelvio for half an hour. I was shocked at the massive vibes. The Griso was much smoother overall ... but not good two up.

The KTM is a great bike ... but didn't you say before you did not want a "high maintenance" bike? If you are willing to put in the time with the KTM and can learn all its ins and outs, then all is fine.

We've got about 8 of them in our riding group. You really have to look after them carefully. I've ridden the 950 Adventure and 950SM and 690E. I also owned a KTM Duke ll (2001) Neither single is two up capable. The 990/950's are excellent bikes if you can handle the maintenance. They get better and easier every year but real mechanics make the best owners of these. I would have no problem with one in Europe, but wouldn't go to Mexico on one ... even though they have dealers there. I don't trust them ... but I've never owned one of the 950/990's, so who knows. But you "hear" a lot of "stories".

True, good bike, but pricey.
All suspension is re-buildable. But why would you worry about that? KTM suspension is pretty good WP stuff. Not the junk BMW use. Might need some fine tuning but once set-up, should be good for years. True, rims are soft. Are you planning on doing Triple jumps or riding the Erzberg Rodeo on a fully loaded 990 Two up? :confused1: Whamming a rock will dent the rim, seen it happen in Baja. My advice? Look where your going and loft the front end over the bad ones when possible. Slow down! KTM components are pretty good overall ... 2nd only to all Japanese components .... actually many of key components used on the KTM's (F.I., ignition) are Japanese.

With BMW, not so much the parts themselves .... more that they are poorly designed systems and not spec'd correctly for the job at hand ... thus more failures than should be. The final drive is a perfect example. And how did you like the electrics on your R100GS?
But the F800GS uses a Rotax motor, has been mostly OK, but not perfect, from what I've heard. Two friends own F800's, both doing OK after a year.
Nothing major.

In many cases aftermarket parts are crap. It's often just hype, an illusion, catalog bling. OEM is most always best ... at least with Japanese bikes. There are some exceptions of course. I don't follow BMW stuff much, but many complaints about Tourtech parts.

The Multistrada would be great (but unproven) if you've got about 22,000 Euros to spend. I've not ridden it, two friends just bought this bike so I'll get on it soon I hope. I would not take it far off road ... perhaps very well groomed dirt road? Not a dual sport/adventure bike by any stretch. Crashing a new Multi would be TRAGIC!

To be fair to the F800GS is was only a relatively short ride two up directly after riding the 1200GS. The back end was probably set too soft for the two of us and, as a result, the steering felt strange (but mostly didn't like the fact it was too cramped for 2). Other than that the power and general rideability was good.

I'm a real Guzzi fan but from everything I've seen and read, I don't think I'll take the plunge and get a Stelvio

I don't have much faith in either of my local KTM dealers. The other day the new dealer, who is part of a Suzuki dealers, tried to convince me that DRZ valve shims were exactly the same as the ones for my 530 exc. I can deal with the maintenance but would prefer not to have to.

Someone wrecked a front wheel on a 990 on the 1st French Adv. rider rally last year as a result of a fairly small accident. But no, I've never managed to damage a rim yet so I don't think it'll be a problem. The Japanese make some very good components including suspension.

The standard alternator is a weak point on the R100GS but other than that I've not had a problem. OE suspension is rubbish and was replaced before the bike was ridden and has been upgraded since. The original exhaust died from old age and was replaced with an aftermarket version which has been fine but other than that the bike is standard. I appreciate its 'low-techness' more as time goes by.

Accessories are another matter, many so called adventure bike accs. are just not fit for purpose


I'm sure it's a very good bike but as an off roader I'm sure it's just a 'styling exercise'

Those are awesome rides. Thanks for posting the pics.

Cheers.