Hi all,

Arrived 2 weeks ago from the Sahara Desert Challenge, Portugal to Dakar
Sahara Desert Challenge - A grande aventura africana

Went with my Defender 90 300Tdi, but got an itch to do it again on 2 wheels.

Currently have a XT1200Z Super Tenere which will be on sale, I'm done with heavy bikes, and rigid luggage as well.

First of all, I'm based in Portugal, so everything's in that context.
Use will be on/off road overlanding in Iberia and Morocco and amateur rallies in Africa.
- I don't want anything over 170kg or so, after equipped with big tank, navigation, etc
- If it could carry a pillion for like 5km in the summer it would be nice, but that's not critical
- I'm done with rigid panniers, soft luggage only from now on. I have a nice camping kit I use on bikepacking, ultra light and compact
- I want at very least 20L of fuel
- I'm OK with kickstart only, and want to have one
- I want to be able to ride to places by road, even long distances. I don't want a trailler queen. I want to be able to ride 800km by road to get to the ferry in Tarifa
- I'm 6'1, 210lb naked
- Don't need a fairing, but a small screen would be nice for me and instrumentation
- I'm on a budget

Right now I'm looking into the several options. All of them get within a €1.000 difference from each other, after big tank or import taxes or whatever

- Honda XR650R - I love the idea of this bike, really do. Only 2 problems, first the subframe strenght, considering my 95kg and a Giant Loop in the back. Second, most units on the market in PT and SP seem to be somewhat worn out. Should I be worried? Would get the Acerbis 24L tank for it


- KTM 640 Adv (model year from 2004 on) - Had 3 guys with them on the Sahara Desert Challenge, they had a great time. Should be the most expensive option (would have to import it) but I guess there's not much to mod or upgrade. Oil change seems to be a nightmare, was a big turn off when I found about it. Are spares still easy to get?


- Yamaha TT600R (model year around 2000/02) - Love the idea of the air cooled engine, it just looks like a tank. Would get the 20L tank. What are the oil change intervals like? Mot of them show up looking a bit old, is that something to be worried about on this model?


- Just loose my head, get a KTM EXC (450 or 500-something) and change the oil each 2000km or so. Which would be the better engine, late RFS? Would it be able to meet my requirements, or am I asking for trouble? The idea of departing with a high power mountain bike with lightweight luggage is so appealing


Thanks in advance for all the help

Welcome to the dark side

Lots of choice here and a VERY popular genre of bike if you want to travel with real off-road capability.

The more off-road capable the bike, then generally the lighter the sub-frame and smaller the lights.

However, strengthening a sub-frame should not be a show-stopper.

None of these bikes were made to be travel bikes. They will all require modifications. But these mods are not difficult. Long range tanks are available, more comfortable seats can be bought or made and luggage racks are available for all too. Lights are easily upgraded and anything and everything can be built and bolted on. There is ENDLESS amounts of info on the hubb and the whole process is a lot of fun too.

Ask yourself HOW off-road orientated you want to go. Going down from such a large bike, you will probably be happier on a 650. Especially if you want to go road-riding.

Look into:

Honda

XR650L (My current ride)
XR650R
CRF250L

Suzuki

DR650SE
DRZ400

Yamaha

XT600E
TTR250 (& RAID)
XT660 Tenere
XT660R
XT250 Serrow

BMW

650 Cross Challenge
650 Cross Country

KTM

640 Adventure
690 Enduro


All of these have their pro's and cons and some are more road biased than off-road. Some require subframe mods, some dont etc.

I think it's always better to pick a strong motor, chassis and suspension and then everything else can be adapted from there. Depending on budget obviously.

You need to spend countless hours reading through the hubb...

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Thanks man,

That was more or less my initial list, which I reduced to the ones I mentioned.

"Ask yourself HOW off-road orientated you want to go. Going down from such a large bike, you will probably be happier on a 650. Especially if you want to go road-riding."

Well, I would like to have as much offroad capabilities as possible while still being able to reliably cover some liaison road distances. I say reliably, not comfortably.

You're right about a 650 feeling light after the 1200.

By the way, recently read the Motosyberia report, amazing stuff, both on the 640s and later on the EXC400s:
3 x KTM GO EAST | Adventure Rider

That's what I'm thinking about too after watching this guys trip on ktm 500exc. (Motonomad) Over 2k oil change is not that bad, frame looks strong enough as well. Need only oversize tank.

Good movie, they did 7k km on these ktms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhWR5jjGzfM&t=6s

You can get also xt660z tenere and put her on diet, my current ride BTW.
Great bike.

p.s.
after super tenere everything will feel lighter and don't you even look into 250cc segment, you'll be bored to death.

Ted's done a nice job laying out the bikes in the 650 class. But most important thing is YOUR level of off road riding experience and skill.

If you've never done Off Road riding then many of the 650 bikes could be TOO MUCH for you if you're riding Sahara sand dunes, Rocky Pistes and such as your first off road experiences. Not so easy.

If you have a fair amount of off road experience and are YOUNG and STRONG ... then a 650, IMO, is a great choice.

I'd go with the XT600 Yamaha. Most reliable, inexpensive, well supported and proven. The KTM's are great to ride ... but not so reliable and NOT maintenance free and are relatively EXPENSIVE.

If you are very mechanical ... then do consider the KTM 640's or even 525 or 530 EXC. GREAT off road, not so good ON road. Expensive to buy, expensive parts very few dealers vs. Big Four bikes.

None of KTM's are very good ON road except the KTM 690. But if on a budget ... then newer KTM's may be too expensive? The XT600 Yamaha's are cheap, plentiful, low maintenance, reliable like a hammer.

If you are a true Off Road novice regards riding serious off road, then a 250cc bike is what you should be looking at to start off. Boring?
I can ride circles around guys riding 650's if terrain is deep sand, mud or very technical tracks. Big advantage for the 250.

The 650 guys can struggle climbing steep, loose rocky hills and will shit themselves coming down super steep sections. Easy and in control on a 250.

Several Big advantages to a 250: 1. Your learning curve will go UP fast if learning on a 250cc dirt bike or dual sport bike vs. a big 650.

A 650 off road can be a struggle in harsh conditions for a Novice rider. I've known several friends coming off big street bikes (but NO off road experience) and did not listen to this advice. After 3 rides on their new 650's had them QUITTING off road riding completely, sold off new bikes. Shame.

Starting on a 250cc makes learning FUN and much safer than a 650.

I own a Suzuki DR650 but have owned and ridden many 250's as well. Both bikes ridden in serious off road in Mexico, Baja, Nevada and all over Mojave Desert in California.

I love the DR650, but in deep sand or anything technical, the 250's are a delight ... the 650 is a struggle even for me ... with 40 years off road riding experience, AMA "B" enduro rider (retired).

Good 250's to consider:
TTR250, CRF250L, XR250R or L,WR250R, KTM 250/350 EXC ($$$$), Kawa KLX250S.

Read up on the Yamaha WR250R. You will find it quite capable both ON and OFF road. It will cruise easily at 65 MPH all day (92 MPH top speed) gets 72 MPG with huge service intervals. Can be packed up heavy due to STRONG rear sub frame. Good aftermarket support and owner knowledge.

Some good advice there Mollydog.

I ride an xt1200z on the road too and do a bit of off roading on a ktm350 freeride. I am no off road expert but have been riding off-road for 10 years so am not a complete novice either.

I used an xt660z in Africa last year and it was too big/heavy for my confidence and ability on serious off road/sand. What i would not have given to be on my freeride at those times.

I'd say the 650s are fine for gravel roads and dirt tracks but for serious rocks, mud and sand they are still a bit heavy. I had never ridden sand before and my 660z was the wrong bike to learn on.

One bit of advice i wish i'd had: get some proper training on sand riding before you go if sand riding is new to you.

Look forward to hearing how you get on (bike and trip).

Great advice regards instruction on Sand (good for off road riding in general) The guys I learned from weren't the best teachers ... they'd say ... just slide back on the seat and GAS IT! :help smilie: Scary for a first time Baja rider.

Problem is ... this method gets you going 70 MPH quickly on a 600cc ... when the inevitable crash happens ... not good at that speed.


Typical Baja Sand track. The wind plays important part, high wind can blow MORE sand into track. Race trucks going 100 mph blow sand OUT of the track.
Rain makes it much easier.

Sand riding is about VISION most of all. Looking WAY out ahead is important. Next: stay balanced on the bike, standing a "must do". Maintain a lower gear where you can rev out of deeper or softer sand when required. Moving fore and aft on the bike is also important to getting through tough sections, Whoops, turns or ruts. Dry Summer sand is much harder to ride than damp sand after rain or sand in early AM.

I've ridden thousands of miles of Sand in Baja ... and it requires me re-learning then re-adjusting technique on every trip. After a day riding and struggling ... I'm much better off and things just get easier as you go. Correct tires also important, especially the front. No street or 50/50 tires will do. Knobbies only.

But I'll never ride sand at 80 mph like the Dakar heroes do. Crash results can be devastating ... and where we ride we have NO Helicopter or support of any kind.

A dry weight of 140Kg is most likely your tilting point for doing soft surfaces and sand. Obviously a 105kg KTM 450EXC looks exciting, but as mentioned, they require oil change every 10 hours and I am not sure you can fit luggage to their rear subframe.

The Suzuki DR650SE (emphasis on SE - 1996+) is 149kg stock, but easily reduced to 140kg by changing muffler and fuel tank. and the bike is known to be extremely reliable. But it is getting old now. Last year was 2003 I think.

Then you have the venerable Honda XL650R. Sadly plagued with cracking head problems. Aalso not sold in Europe for a long time. Still available new in North America as the all mighty XR650L

Good old Honda 650 would be my first choice if it were not for the head problem. These are a bunch of guys I met in Algeciras. We crossed together to Mellila and we met several times over the next two weeks. They had a Honda XL650R, a Suzuki DR650 and a KTM.

In Algeciras, waiting for the boat.





Again, North of Melga / Ouidane





Crossed them quickly in Merzouga, then Zagora

And in Ouarzazate

Wow! Nice Africa ride there Lee! Great group of bikes!

One correction on the Suzuki DR650. You're right, post 1996 is the good one and one you want ... but DR650's have not been discontinued in North America, only in EU/UK.

So, you can buy a BRAND new DR650 (unchanged since 1996!!) anywhere in USA or Canada. Plenty of cheap used ones everywhere here. ($2500 to $4K USD)

Also, DR's are sold in Colombia, Ecuador and Possibly Peru'. Police use them there and Suzuki have an assembly plant in Colombia.

So the DR650 is alive and well. Check out the BIG DR650 thread in the Thumpers section on ADV RIDER. It's the largest thread on ALL of the ADV RIDER web site. 24 million views, over 120 thousand posts.

Still, over all, if rider is a novice dirt rider, I would forego a 650 and go with a 250 instead. Off road I can keep up with just about any rider on a 650 riding my 250.. The tougher conditions get, the easier the 250 is to ride, and harder for a 650.

I've owned a bunch of Hondas going back to the 80's: XL600R, XR600R, XR650L, XR400R, XR250R. May fav was XR250R.

The XR650L is expensive and runs too HOT. No oiler cooler like XR400 has, and has weak subframe and big battery box hanging off side panel. Many problems with the XR650L on many Baja rides since 1992. (I bought a '93 XR650L new ... sold one year later) Not good for me.

IMHO, the DR650 is by far the BEST ADV travel 650 out there today. Old tech but quite a remarkable bike. Ask any owner or RTW traveler. Many are out there right now riding DR650's. All things considered, very hard to top the
mighty Suzuki DR650SE. Mine has over 60,000 miles (NOT KMS)no issues despite serious abuse in Baja and elsewhere. Many long rides done both ON and OFF road. Best single I've ever owned or ridden.

That's correct. I was sticking to that 1996-2003 date as I have been searching high and low in France for my next bike for a Middle East and North Africa tour. They are rare, and rarity commands higher prices. 2000 Euros for an SE, and the bike is at least 15 years old. But plenty of cheap pre-SE bikes with their (sometimes troublesome) chain-driven countershaft and 25kg higher weight (and often without E-starter).

Interestingly, I have French buddies trying to buy new Honda XR650L and DR650SE from Canada to import to France... ;-)

I did Tunisia on a 1988 Africa twin 650 RD03 two years ago and loved the bike. Good everywhere. Then did another 20,000km tour the following year with a 1996 Africa Twin 750 RD07a and it is a completely different bike. Heavier. Less off-road worthy in stock form. But totally reliable.

Nonetheless I loved both bikes so much that I took them with me to Montreal.

BTW depending on what the OP expect from his bike, the original Africa Twin remains a great contender for short or long term adventure rides. It is totally bulletproof after the voltage regulator has been changed to a Mosfet unit (same problem on every single model Honda has produced until around 2005).

Every bike in this list has a problem here or there.. I run a rebuilt 1993 XR650L.

True, they can run hot in the desert but an XR400 oil cooler is a simple bolt on as are any oil coolers. Subframe is easily beefed up too. They're an old design but their simplicity makes them a great travel bike. They're not a desert racer.. They're a ranch bike in design I think.

I think its main 'issue' (if you can call it that) is people don't look after them because they think "oh its a Honda, just ride it hard and it will be fine"...

Battery box is probably an after thought. It does mean you have the joy of a reliable electric start and can use a proper sized battery instead of the 'comedy' batteries on some trail bikes that are flat after three turns of the starter motor. It's under a panel and no problem.

The XR650L is basically a Honda Dominator with a lightweight chassis, offroad suspension and a slightly shorter gearing.

Being Portuguese, I doubt he'd be able to get one easily anyway. The DR650SE was available in Germany and France but im not sure about Iberia.

Find me on Facebook: MotoTed & MotoRevive.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Thanks for all the answers so far

Regarding my physical condition, I'm young, 27, and people tend to consider me fairly strong, I'm heavily into olympic weightlifting and crossfit.

My offroad ability is hard to self evaluate, but I had my share of riding on smaller bikes and some on 450s (CRF). We have lots and lots of deep sand tracks here in the shore, so we get our share of that too. I'm no expert, very far from that, but not a complete novice either.
I already tried some of the 250s, including the WR250R but found them too weak, at least for my taste. An extra 15hp and that's the sweet spot.

Tremens, you mentioned the XT660Z Tenere, but without wanting to offend your bike choice, I really think that one was a wasted opportunity for Yamaha. Rode on one for some time and had a couple of them in the group on the Dakar expedition.
It's way too heavy, the rims are very soft and I really don't like the suspension, feels like a 90's MTB. Also, there is no racional behind the bike's height with such a short wheel travel, it seems mostly an exercise of style.


Mollydog, thanks, but I'm not interested on the DR650. Most here are very old and worn out and selling for the same price as a XR650R. I'm also after a more aggressive bike. Same with the XT600, I want more suspension travel and a 18" rear wheel, hence considering the TT600R.


Massive Lee, I understand the 10h maintenance thing on the 450 and 500s is mostly under race conditions and the absence of rear rack is a non issue for me as I want to use a Giant Loop.
Nice pics there, passed on Merzouga and Zagora last December, but missed Ouarzazate. Went to Mhamid and then Icht instead.

I'm probably scrapping the 640 ADV from my list, decided I don't want to deal with a fairing, at least for the Iberian rides.

Regarding the budget, limits exist, but I can stretch it a bit if I have a good reason. Founds will mostly come from the sale of the S10

I had an XR650R for a while too. That is a hell of a good bike. Lots of water cooled power, reliable and its been raced in the desert a lot.. People have travelled on them as well. Its a bit vibey though, like a KTM 640..

Its downsides are that it's kick-start only and it has AC power only apart from a very weak DC supply for indicators and piss poor headlight. It makes upgrading lights and adding accessories a bit of a chore.

I'd never heard of the heads cracking. That was the early XR650Ls when they blocked airflow to the head.



Find me on Facebook: MotoTed & MotoRevive.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

well I don't quite agree with you here, newer xt660z has progressive suspension which is much better then before 2012 models. Also I said you can put this bike on diet plus remember it has 23 liters tank which is around 17 kg of weight. This translates to over 500 km range. For longer trips this is one of the most comfortable bikes IMO and you can load a lot on it. Trail bikes will never be like that. Definitely tenere is not light but I've been riding off-road much heavier bikes and for me this is not deal breaker. Dakar rally bikes weigh not much less.