|
|
8 Apr 2008
|
|
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wirral, England.
Posts: 5,673
|
|
Mayot running problems with Brazilian fuel (30% alcohol) - HELP
Does anyone have experience of running brazilian or alchol rich fuel ?????
Im currently in Brazil and having major running problems with my XT600E
It was running fine until I got here and started using the fuel (which is 30% alcohol)
The bike keeps cutting out and feels like its being starved of fuel. It will cut out when I open the throttle to accelerate or overtake trucks.. Sometimes it will just cut out in town and I have to wait a few minutes before it will start again.
Im travelling with 3 other bikes who although they are feeling the effects with poor starting and less power, they are not having problems like me.
I have just stripped the carb in my hotel room and all the jets, pipes clear and diaphrams in great shape (the bike only have 12000 miles). I have also changed the plug and the filter before hand which made no difference.
I am also getting 30% better fuel economy so my guess is that the alcohol is making the bike run very lean.
Im going to change the clip pósition on the jets and try and richen her up top see if it makes a difference.
Im all ears to suggestions.
__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.
|
8 Apr 2008
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: XXX<-Portugal->Azores->Santa Maria (island)
Posts: 1,544
|
|
I've heard of people putting more octanes in their fuel...duno if it is a good ideia or not...
How was Buenos Aires?
|
9 Apr 2008
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 235
|
|
I have no experience of Brazilian feuls.
I have some experience of Zimbabwe alcohol rich feuls. But there if you could just get fuel you were made; so...
Firstly you dont want to add octane boosters. Alcohol / Ethanol tolerates much higher compression levels than fossil fuel.
Ethanol burns much hotter. (Timing may be of issue) For once praise to fuel injection over Carbs :-(
Ethanol will probably eat your rubber components. Ethanol is highly corrosive that way. Tolerance of rubber to EU or common standards is only 10% mix.
Brazil runs "Flexifuel" vehicles. Your bike is probably not.
The calorific value of Ethanol is 55% lower than fossil fuel. Running a "richer mix" is probbly your best answer alongside a hotter spark plug. Watch your engine temp.
|
9 Apr 2008
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 235
|
|
some more info.
Quoted from Alcohol for Motor Fuels
Blending Alcohol and Gasoline
Mixing alcohol with gasoline produces gasohol. Advantages of fuel blends are that alcohol tends to increase the octane rating, which is particularly important in unleaded fuel, and reduce carbon monoxide (CO) emissions from the engine.
The primary disadvantage of mixing methyl and ethyl alcohol with gasoline is that under certain conditions these alcohols may separate from the gasoline. An engine adjusted to burn gasoline efficiently will produce less power from alcohol should it separate from the gasoline. Separation is caused by the polar nature of the alcohol molecules and their tendency to absorb water, also a polar substance. Methyl alcohol is the most likely to separate, butyl alcohol the least likely. The tendency for separation increases as the temperature decreases, the quantity of water absorbed increases, and the quality of the gasoline decreases.
Figure 2: Gasoline engine full throttle exhaust emissions using ethanol fuel blends.
The effect of using a blend of alcohol and gasoline in an engine adjusted for gasoline is to "lean out" the fuel mixture. This is illustrated in Figure 1 for an engine burning blends of ethanol and gasoline. A mixture of 10 percent ethanol in gasoline produced more power when the carburetor was adjusted for gasoline. Increasing the ethanol content to 25 percent reduced the power output. The test results in Figure 1 were obtained at an elevation of 5,000 feet where an engine adjusted to operate on gasoline is expected to run rich. The 10 percent blend produced a leaner and better air-fuel ratio; the 25 percent blend was too lean.
Because of its higher stoichiometric air-fuel ratio, butyl alcohol can be mixed with gasoline in higher concentrations without affecting performance. Similarly, because of its low stoichiometric air-fuel ratio, only a small quantity of methyl alcohol can be mixed with gasoline without affecting performance. In other words, a fuel blend containing 20 percent methyl alcohol requires modification of the carburetor fuel jets to optimize power output, whereas a 20 percent blend of butyl alcohol does not.
The effect on exhaust emissions of increasing the ethanol concentration in the fuel is shown in Figure 2. The primary effect of ethanol is to reduce the CO emissions. It should be noted that the same effect was obtained using straight gasoline and carefully leaning the air-fuel ratio.
|
9 Apr 2008
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 235
|
|
|
9 Apr 2008
|
|
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wirral, England.
Posts: 5,673
|
|
Thanks for the info....
The bike actually runs much worse in the wet too here.
So, iv richened up the secondary carb and ill post back my results...
Working on carbs in a hotel room in tropical heat with a limited tool kit is surprisingly difficult and frustrating
__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.
|
9 Apr 2008
|
|
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wirral, England.
Posts: 5,673
|
|
Thanks Bruken, loads of useful infor there to help me sort this !!
__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.
|
9 Apr 2008
|
Registered Users
HUBB regular
|
|
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 68
|
|
Did it run better with the choke on? That would enrichen the mixture, at least for troubleshooting.
|
9 Apr 2008
|
|
R.I.P.
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: california
Posts: 3,824
|
|
Since this type of fuel tends to absorb water, is it possible you've simply got a "bad batch" of Ethanol with too much water in it? Maybe drain it and fill up at a different location/brand? When fuel storage tanks get low, the last 10% to 20% of capacity at the bottom tends to have a LOT of water and crud in it.
Maybe talk to locals to find out which brand of fuel seems to work best. As I recall, Brazil used to have regular petrol as well as Ethanol? No? I'm sure you would have found this by now. Or have they converted to 100% Ethanol everywhere?
Checking/adjusting Jetting and mixture:
Using the choke will richen mixture, hopefully enough to determine if that is the problem/solution.
To go the other way (lean) , open the air box cover/door, or pull the air screen out or air filter to add more air flow. (temporarily of course)
Any change? Better? Worse?
If water is in the fuel perhaps you can find products that absorb water from fuel that allows it to be burned and run through? I would think local products would be available since this seems to be a common issue there? Funnily enough, in the US, we use Isopropyl Alcolhol in fuel to remove water!
So this gets a bit confusing! :confused1:
I would not change your main jet yet. Remember: it only comes into play at full throttle. I would start with the fuel/air screw first. Simple to get to and simple to change.(AKA fuel screw, air mixture screw, or whatever)
Most bikes have this screw plugged up so you may not have access to it.
But its easy to remove plug.
See if you can get a proper idle and better starting. OUT is richer, IN is leaner.
Warm up bike some.
Turn it OUT/Loosen to richen mixture. The fuel/air screw only affects idle and up to 1/8 throttle opening only. Go no more than two full turns out at most. Adjust for highest/smoothest idle.
Next, adjust needle jet clip position. The needle-jet has a clip with notches. Adjust in the rich direction a notch or two.
Test ride.
Next, try a LARGER pilot jet. (Larger number = Rich) Try one size larger to start.
Test Ride.
I'm sure you can solve this. Handle carb with care.
good luck!
Patrick
__________________
Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!
|
11 Apr 2008
|
|
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wirral, England.
Posts: 5,673
|
|
Problem sorted
Well, its sorted...
It wasnt the fuel after all.
I changed the needle and got about 50k out of town before the bike completely died...
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUCk !!! Thank god I was with other bikers.
We pushed it back to a gas station and tried to fix it. We couldnt find the problem. I even put it back to standard settings in a petrol station car park in tropical heat (not fun)..
After a couple of hours we decided to hobble back to town and find the local yamaha guru. I BRILLIANT mechanic in town knew the problem.
It wasnt te fuel after all. I have a micro filter in my carb which was blocked. Although I blew though it when i cleaned the cardb, i didnt have the tools available to dissasemble and check it properly. It was cleaned out and now the bike is running fine. Its still a little lean and running hot, but its running !!!
the gas here is shit but you can buy premium fuel at 2 USD a litre which runs good !! Thats what im doing !!
Thanks
__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.
|
11 Apr 2008
|
|
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wirral, England.
Posts: 5,673
|
|
Problem sorted
Well, its sorted...
It wasnt the fuel after all.
I changed the needle and got about 50k out of town before the bike completely died...
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUCk !!! Thank god I was with other bikers.
We pushed it back to a gas station and tried to fix it. We couldnt find the problem. I even put it back to standard settings in a petrol station car park in tropical heat (not fun)..
After a couple of hours we decided to hobble back to town and find the local yamaha guru. I BRILLIANT mechanic in town knew the problem.
It wasnt te fuel after all. I have a micro filter in my carb which was blocked. Although I blew though it when i cleaned the cardb, i didnt have the tools available to dissasemble and check it properly. It was cleaned out and now the bike is running fine. Its still a little lean and running hot, but its running !!!
the gas here is shit but you can buy premium fuel at 2 USD a litre which runs good !! Thats what im doing !!
Thanks for all the help.
__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.
|
11 Apr 2008
|
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posts: 1,362
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedmagnum
I have a micro filter in my carb
|
DR650s have something similar on the carb inlet pipe... most people remove them and throw them away .. more trouble than they are worth..
__________________
---
Regards Frank Warner
motorcycles BMW R80 G/S 1981, BMW K11LT 1993, BMW K75 G/S
|
11 Apr 2008
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 651
|
|
?
Dear Ted and XT travellers,
How many times do I have to repeat that this sh*tty little filter should be removed, shot and burned on a bonfire?
It is the XT's only real design flaw .... !
Good to hear your problem is solved!
Auke
|
11 Apr 2008
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 4,343
|
|
One day
Quote:
Originally Posted by aukeboss
Dear Ted and XT travellers,
How many times do I have to repeat that this sh*tty little filter should be removed, shot and burned on a bonfire?
It is the XT's only real design flaw .... !
Good to hear your problem is solved!
Auke
|
One day in the future, someday, there will be a technical page over there on the left for bikes, even XTs, that will save you posting this advice every couple of months.
There is some there now, for the DR650 and Beemers.
__________________
Dave
|
11 Apr 2008
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: XXX<-Portugal->Azores->Santa Maria (island)
Posts: 1,544
|
|
Hi.. I found this post here on the forum...
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...problems-11679
For the 22% ethanol brazilian fuel, the carb should be jetted 9-10% richer than with pure gas....
Vando
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 1 guests)
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Check the RAW segments; Grant, your HU host is on every month!
Episodes below to listen to while you, err, pretend to do something or other...
2020 Edition of Chris Scott's Adventure Motorcycling Handbook.
"Ultimate global guide for red-blooded bikers planning overseas exploration. Covers choice & preparation of best bike, shipping overseas, baggage design, riding techniques, travel health, visas, documentation, safety and useful addresses." Recommended. (Grant)
Ripcord Rescue Travel Insurance™ combines into a single integrated program the best evacuation and rescue with the premier travel insurance coverages designed for adventurers.
Led by special operations veterans, Stanford Medicine affiliated physicians, paramedics and other travel experts, Ripcord is perfect for adventure seekers, climbers, skiers, sports enthusiasts, hunters, international travelers, humanitarian efforts, expeditions and more.
Ripcord travel protection is now available for ALL nationalities, and travel is covered on motorcycles of all sizes!
What others say about HU...
"This site is the BIBLE for international bike travelers." Greg, Australia
"Thank you! The web site, The travels, The insight, The inspiration, Everything, just thanks." Colin, UK
"My friend and I are planning a trip from Singapore to England... We found (the HU) site invaluable as an aid to planning and have based a lot of our purchases (bikes, riding gear, etc.) on what we have learned from this site." Phil, Australia
"I for one always had an adventurous spirit, but you and Susan lit the fire for my trip and I'll be forever grateful for what you two do to inspire others to just do it." Brent, USA
"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the (video) series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring!" Jennifer, Canada
"Your worldwide organisation and events are the Go To places to for all serious touring and aspiring touring bikers." Trevor, South Africa
"This is the answer to all my questions." Haydn, Australia
"Keep going the excellent work you are doing for Horizons Unlimited - I love it!" Thomas, Germany
Lots more comments here!
Diaries of a compulsive traveller
by Graham Field
Book, eBook, Audiobook
"A compelling, honest, inspiring and entertaining writing style with a built-in feel-good factor" Get them NOW from the authors' website and Amazon.com, Amazon.ca, Amazon.co.uk.
Back Road Map Books and Backroad GPS Maps for all of Canada - a must have!
New to Horizons Unlimited?
New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!
Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80G/S.
Read more about Grant & Susan's story
Membership - help keep us going!
Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events all over the world with the help of volunteers; we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.
You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, or ask questions on the HUBB. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.
|
|
|